The Diverse Dungeon
Helping the neurodivergent find their safe places in BDSM and sex positive spaces.
The Diverse Dungeon
Episode 3 - Letting Go: neurodivergence and attachment
Ever wondered how your neurodivergence affects your ability to form and maintain secure attachments? How might it impact not just your romantic relationships, but also those bonds within your family?
I also share a personal anecdote about why this topic is important to me, even if it’s more kink adjacent, than directly related.
Enjoy!
Links from episode:
The Attachment Project - https://www.attachmentproject.com/psychology/neurodiversity/
Introduction to Attachment Styles fromCoach Elizabeth Brink, BCC, ACC, CNC
https://www.thrivingsistercoaching.com/post/a-primer-on-attachment-theory-neurodivergent
Research Paper on Infatuation and Attachment
“Infatuation and attachment : How do they differ in autism and neurodiversity?”
https://osf.io/jth6f
Research Paper - Adult attachment and social anxiety: “The mediating role of emotion regulation strategies.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6310265/
Research Paper - The relationship between attachment and social anxiety, focusing on self-esteem and locus of control as possible mediators
https://uhra.herts.ac.uk/handle/2299/14297
Research Paper - “A systematic review of adult attachment and social anxiety”
https://eprints.lancs.ac.uk/id/eprint/131758/1/A_systematic_review_of_adult_attachment_and_social_anxiety.pdf
What Is Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria?
https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria
New Insights Into Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria
https://www.additudemag.com/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-adhd-emotional-dysregulation/
Rejection Sensitivity: Managing Feelings of Overwhelm and Rejection as an Adult with ADHD
https://add.org/rejection-sensitivity/
7 Emotions That Knock Us Off Our Feet
Social Media:
- Instagram: @neurokinkster
- Facebook: neurokinkster
- Discord Servier: Neurokinkster
Website:
http://www.neurokinkster.com
Musical Intro:
Not So Fast (Quarantine Beats #01) by Patchworker f.k.a. [friendzoned] | https://soundcloud.com/patchworker
Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com
Creative Commons / Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0)
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/deed.en_US
Musical Outro:
The Crossover by Pyrosion | https://soundcloud.com/pyrosion
https://open.spotify.com/artist/51pxQJ5wdwSikfgYDBNXPE
https://www.instagram.com/pyrosion
https://www.youtube.com/@pyrosionmusic8562
Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com
Creative Commons / Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-S...
Hey there, new York Inksters, and welcome to episode 3 of the Diverse Dungeon. This podcast deals with mature themes and ideas. Please do not listen if you do not wish to hear about BDSM, sex or neurodivergence, thank you. Quote Compassion is loving others enough to say or do what is appropriate from an empowered heart, without attachment to the outcome. Gary Zukov. Quote the choice that frees or imprisons us is the choice of love or fear. Love liberates fear in prisons, gary Zukov.
Speaker 1:So if you saw my cute little dog, I was trying to make a short video about attachment, because once she gets hold of a towel, she doesn't like to let go. So if you're wondering what that is, I am going to try and learn how to do this real thing. So bear with me, and any suggestions are appreciated. All right, so we have our question of the week. This one was anonymous what is wrong with my dating profile? Well, I'm going to talk to this specific person because I think a lot of what is wrong with their dating profile is a problem I've seen on a lot of people. Now, this is specific to FETLife, but I think it also is true on many other dating sites, where men are expected to do a lot of the pursuit, and I am talking about heteronormative sites like Bumble or Hinge. I am not familiar with sites like Grinder, and I know that there are plenty of folks out there who can talk about the gay and lesbian experience for dating. I am not one of them. I would like to reiterate that I don't think FETLife is a dating site, but the question came from FETLife and so I'm answering accordingly, so anonymous.
Speaker 1:I took a look at your profile. One of the things I noticed is that you have a specific request, looking for a MILF specifically quote a MILF with large tits for you to suck on unquote. So you are asking for what really comes down to a transactional deal, whether it's casual sex, titty play, mommy fantasies, whatever. Those are all things that people presenting as FEM can provide if they choose to. So tell me, why would a MILF want to play with you and fulfill your fantasy? What does she get out of it? You are asking for emotional and physical labor and offering what I'm going to beat this dead horse. Women aren't a thing. You can order up on any dating site, plug in your fantasy and have it delivered via Grubhub, unless you are willing to pay them for the service they are providing. As a note, sex work should be legal and I'm going to be talking about that in an upcoming podcast with a pro-dom who is also a sex worker and has been for a long time.
Speaker 1:Back to the question women, regardless of the size of their tits, their age or their fantasies, they are people. People share intimate experiences with, people they create a connection with. There are munches and fetish groups that cater to your fantasies, and I would suggest making some connections with people in those groups and see who you can meet. And here's a little bit of further advice the message system on a lot of dating sites, like OKCupid and FetLife, is not a chat or text forum. You don't want to only write one word. It will likely get ignored. Here's my suggestion Use notepad or something similar, compose a short message and then cut and paste it into the dating site app.
Speaker 1:That way you can actually write a complete thing, hit return and actually send it out. Here's the other thing you have to put some information in your profile. You are more likely to get a reply and so help me if you write I'm not really the age at states of my profile, but blank app won't let me change it back you are lying. Just make a new profile, it's not that hard. The other thing, a larger photo of your face and or more pictures would help. A profile with no picture is a red flag and is likely another reason you are not getting any responses. And this is a final note specific to FetLife Anyone on FetLife can click on the Activity tab and see what groups you have joined and the comments you leave on someone's picture. Anyone who wants to look can see your comments and evaluate if you are considerate of the photograph person's feelings and preferences. In other words, unless it is specifically requested, don't make loot comments on people's pictures because every person you are trying to contact can see your history. If you are interested in the Kingkend BDSM lifestyle, again, I suggest you find a munch or some beginner classes to learn some of the basics. You can find them under the Events tab on FetLife.
Speaker 1:So today's topic is about attachment and neurodivergence and I will absolutely admit this is a personal one for me. So first, I've got so much science for you guys today I am super psyched. I've got it from well, I wouldn't say around the world, but I have it from the Western world. So first of all, from the attachment project, I have a couple of things. One is neurodivergence tends to make insecure attachment more likely. Now this depends on the neurodivergent condition and its impact on the social, communication and emotion regulation. In other words, there are some people who are very closed off from their emotions and so they may not make the same kind of attachments as somebody, say, with ADHD, who tends to feel all the feelings.
Speaker 1:So the attachment project puts it like this they call rupture is an experience, an often temporary breakdown in trust in a relationship due to an event that causes stress. Alongside a loss of trust, rupture can also cause feelings of betrayal and a breakdown in communication, and if you want more information, you can find the link down in my descriptions. Now, repair usually comes after a rupture. It's the process of healing and rebuilding the relationship after a fracture. Repair involves acknowledging the pain and hurt caused by the rupture and taking steps to address it as such, as communicating, doing activities together, other things that will build trust.
Speaker 1:Now there is a whole science in education and psychology about attachment theory and how it impacts learning and how it impacts thinking, and I have to admit, having been a teacher for over 12 years and working in psychology, I have some doubts about how attachment theory works. I think that the three categories are just too broad and I think there's more detail there. I will leave a link in the description about attachment styles if you want to read more about it, but I'm going to stay away from those terminology. I'm just going to be talking about attachment as it relates to romantic friendship and familial connections. So I am attached to my nesting partner. I am attached to the people I date. I'm attached to my children. I'm attached to my family. How I style those attachments? Not super important, at least not in my case.
Speaker 1:That said, everyone ADHD, neurodivergent or not needs to be seen and heard. We are safe to explore the emotion behind our actions if it fosters a more compassionate connection through empathy for the other. When other people's behavior is a trigger for the conflict cycle, nobody is heard. In those moments it's less about the person in front of you and more about your past attachments that were not optimal. And this is from thriving sister coaching, and I will put a link to their site in the description. So what I read in that is something I have believed for a long time. When we form our early attachments, we are not verbal. These are the attachments we make with our caregivers. If something is wrong with those attachments, we go back to that nonverbal state where we think, oh my gosh, my caregiver mommy, daddy, grandma, guardian, whatever is not going to be there when I need them and we close ourselves off. And this isn't an articulated thought, it's just behavior. It is deep down in the slow parts of the brain, the lizard brain, if you will, and so it comes out of fear and survival instinct. It is not logical, and that is the most important thing to understand.
Speaker 1:Most people not all, but most people with abandonment issues probably cannot articulate why they have them, and that is because they felt abandoned before they had the language to properly express it. I don't mean that they had bad parents. I mean that perhaps for some reason, their parent or caregiver wasn't there at a crucial moment when they needed to be. And that person learned through either one or two interactions or repeated interactions that when they cried or they wanted comfort, they were not going to receive it. In my case, both of my parents are on the spectrum. They were very attentive to me, but they were not particularly snuggly. They were not touch people, and so I grew up very touch-starved and so a lot of my abandonment issues come around hugs and touching I never know quite when it's appropriate and when it's not and couple that with social anxiety and I tend to have a don't touch me shield that radiates for like 20 feet. The people who get through it, god bless them. And the people who don't, god bless them for respecting my boundaries. It's a double-edged sword and I have a lot of work to do but I am working on it.
Speaker 1:In Sweden there is an independent researcher named Leif Ekblad. Pardon me if I mispronounced that. He had a study that checked the infatuation and attachment scale, the IAS, relationship status and duration in mixed neurotype population, in other words, neurodiverse and neurotypical people. People in the neurodiverse population had higher infatuation scores and people obsessions mediated higher attachment scores. The primary increase in attachment occurred at a distance in the neurodiverse population and with dating in the neurotypical. People diagnosed with autism in the study had considerably more relationship problems compared to both neurodiverse and neurotypical participants. They were less likely to be in love or in a relationship and had shorter durations when they were.
Speaker 1:So I have an acquaintance who is on the spectrum. They have identified themselves as autistic and one of the things we discussed in some of our interactions was how nobody speaks their language, and I mean they are obviously fluent in English. They didn't mean their linguistic language, they meant their mental language. The problem is is when somebody who is neurodiverse is trying to express themselves, they don't always have the words that somebody who is neurotypical can understand. Here's a good example.
Speaker 1:They might say something like I'm lonely and the neurotypical person will say well, go out and see people. But that is not what the neurodivergent or autistic person means. When they say I'm lonely, they mean I don't feel like I have a person I can relate to. I feel like I'm the only one like me in the world. The internet has changed that a great deal.
Speaker 1:When I was growing up, there were your people, but, as I mentioned in some of my writing, I didn't find them until I started going to Renaissance fairs and I hung out with the comic book Eek's and the roleplayers. That was the closest I came to my people. Once I found the internet, I was able to find much closer matches, but there are times when I still feel lonely because I'm still looking for that person who will just get me. So here's the problem when a neurodiverse person finds one of their people, they grab on like a lamprey and do not let go. I have done this. I know many other people who are neurodivergent have done this. It is one of our less attractive traits and I'm going to talk about that more in a moment. So here's the problem when a neurodiverse person finds one of their people, they grab on like a lamprey and do not let go. I have done this. I know many other people who are neurodivergent have done this. It is one of our less attractive traits and I'm going to talk about that more in a moment.
Speaker 1:So when we're talking about adult attachment and social anxiety, we're looking for emotional regulation strategies. The fact is, we've all learned how to get by and not make total assholes of ourselves, or at least I think many of us had. Of course, one of the best techniques is not go out. If we don't go out, we won't screw up and, given how easy it is to be on the internet and connect with people in a very safe way, I know that's how a lot of people end up sitting around their houses and having these wonderful relationships with people who are online, because we can always make sure that there's a little bit of distance, that there's practice, but they don't see how desperate or lonely we are and don't get scared.
Speaker 1:And here's the other thing, and this is called rejection sensitive dysphoria. Now, this is usually applied to people with ADHD, but honestly, I think it happens to anybody who feels their feelings very deeply. You think RSD again, rejection sensitive dysphoria does not have an official set of symptoms. It isn't a formal medical diagnosis, but doctors and therapists often use the term when they notice exaggerated reactions connected to an official behavioral connection, like ADHD. So the word dysphoria stems from an ancient Greek word that translates to intense feelings of pain or discomfort You've probably heard of like body dysphoria or gender dysphoria. So people who experience RSD don't handle rejection well. In fact, they find it hard to describe what they feel and they use words like unbearable or devastating. It can cause a serious fear of rejection, which again keeps people at home, and I spoke about this when I was talking about how to handle consent issues because, as I mentioned, I didn't hear hey, you made a mistake, please learn from it, give yourself a mental upgrade and move on. I just heard you suck, go away. That is what RSD does to people. Now the research for RSD and how it's linked to ADHD is still unclear, and that's because how do you measure rejection? Eugene Arnold, a psychiatrist and behavioral health specialist at Ohio State University, believes that people with ADHD and other forms of neurodiversity are more likely to show the symptoms of RSD due to differences in brain structure.
Speaker 1:Now Caroline McWire, who is a master's of education, if I'm reading this correctly, talks about the difference between rejection sensitivity, which is different than rejection sensitivity. Dysphoria, which she calls rejection sensitivity, is the tendency to anxiously expect, readily perceive and intensely react to rejection, or what I like to call living in the real world. Don't have expectations, expect rejection and you'll never be disappointed. Caroline McWire would probably say that I'm being too cynical and I have to be honest. She has a much better policy than mine. So she calls it the four Rs and what she says is to gauge the intensity of our emotions. These steps can calm your body and mind and help you figure out how intense the emotions you are feeling are. First, she says recognize, identify where you are emotionally. The second thing, she says, is to respond. As you recognize where you are on the intensity meter, you can appropriately respond. Her third R is reflect. She says this is very important because, of course, how we react to a situation from that lizard brain or feelings of rejection is probably not logical or wouldn't make sense to somebody. And so she says what story are you telling yourself? What evidence do you have that that story is true? I mean, would those people actually say that about you? And then her final step is reframe. So instead of falling into the rabbit hole where you say I suck, nobody loves me, I will always be alone, consider healthy strategies like considering better reactions. So overall, I really appreciated these four things.
Speaker 1:Caroline McWire wrote a book called why Will no One Play With Me, and I believe the final statement on her website, where I got the four Rs, come from that. Because her question is what if people really don't want to play with you? And she says if Rs is a big issue for you, consider working with a therapist. Evaluating past situations can help you move forward in a more confident manner. In addition, cbt and DBT workbooks can help you work through these issues on your own. And what if people don't actually want to play with you? If this is the case, work on your social skills to help reduce the risk of being rejected in the future. So I have social anxiety and when people don't want to quote unquote play with me, it's probably because I lack social skills. Gee, thanks, now I feel so much better. This is one of the reasons I really like the BDSM and kink environment and community Because, quite frankly, they are more likely to take you aside and talk to you about your social skills. I've been fired from jobs because of a quote unquote lack of social skills. I have never been asked to leave a BDSM environment and I have been talked to about my behavior and I've worked on it and I didn't feel rejected. All right. So I promised you that this was very personal.
Speaker 1:It is time for a story. Yes, it is story time. I'm going to talk about my ex. Okay, I have a lot of exes, but this one is a specific one, and I'm going to call them Benji, because it's really hard to talk about this without a name. When I met Benji, I knew from the moment I met them that they were my people and I believe that feeling was reciprocated. We clicked like I have never clicked with anyone before and our relationship was intense.
Speaker 1:It was also a toxic and horrible relationship, and I think it is because we both have ADHD, and I believe we both suffer from this dysphoria, this idea of being rejected, and boy do we both have abandonment issues. So, to quote a friend of mine, when we were good and we were amazing and when we are bad, it was an apocalypse and we had a lot of apocalypses. This is why the relationship should not have lasted as long as it did and has lasted still to this day in one form or another. Because here's the other problem we found our people, so we don't want to let go. Now, for me, that's not the hugest issue. I am in an ethical, non-monogamous relationship, and while my nesting partner isn't thrilled with this particular ex, they have learned to at least accept them. Regrettably, my ex is married and the person they are married to is not polyamorous and does not believe in ethical non-monogamy. So I did what any good ex-girlfriend does I walked away.
Speaker 1:I ended all contact For over a year Not a word, not an email, not a text, not even a sub-tweet or an aside on Facebook. Do I think that they were keeping track of me? Oh, hell yeah. I kept a Tarot blog and I'm pretty damn sure that they looked at it, especially since now and again, they send me Tarot card decks that they think I'd be interested in, and I never talked about Tarot when we were together. As far as I recall, that was something I picked up as a way to get over them. But they weren't going to let go.
Speaker 1:And I knew they weren't letting go and one day, months and months after I had walked away and stopped all contact, I got an email from them saying hey, I'm going to be in town, do you want to get dinner? And I did. I got dinner and I tried I tried so many times to explain to them why I was upset and why I didn't think a friendship was going to work. I mean, I basically said as long as you're married to that person, we can't be friends. Because that person tried to get me out of their lives, and I can understand why. Remember what I said earlier about toxic and apocalypse. I believe that their partner loves them very much and wanted what was best for them and did not see me as part of that equation, and I do not want to even consider the amount of fights and emotional labor those two went through to figure out where to shove me in. Because, again, benji would not let go and I don't mean to put this all on Benji, because Benji sent the email, but I answered it. I could have ignored it.
Speaker 1:What has happened since, you might ask? Well, sometimes we talk for an hour. Sometimes we just send each other stupid memes. Sometimes, like now, we haven't spoken to each other in a long enough amount of time that I've noticed it. But since I sent the last message, I just get to sit and wait, because that is how this relationship works. We have never addressed what went wrong between us, other than to say it sucked. We have never really addressed where we're going, because I don't think they can tell me. I know where I want to go, but I don't see that happening.
Speaker 1:Provided that they are in the relationship that they are and I don't mean they have to leave their spouse. I would never expect that of somebody I cared about. I mean that their relationship needs to work out something so that their spouse is okay with having me around. And we did take a step in that direction. My spouse and I met Benji's spouse and their lovely child for breakfast the last time we were in their part of the country and it didn't go badly. But the fact is that, as much as I know that this is a bad idea.
Speaker 1:It's hard to let go because Benji is one of my people and I don't have very many of quote my people unquote, there are a few. And here's the other problem when I meet one of my people, the relationship tends towards codependent. Because of ADHD, because of RSD, because of my abandonment issues. This isn't easy. One of the reasons I've been poly for so long is to avoid this problem. If I don't get too connected to any one person, I can't get hurt, and it took 44 years before somebody like Benji came in and ruined all of it.
Speaker 1:The last time Benji and I were together in the same place, we were having lunch at one of my favorite takarias and I said, as my therapist suggested Benji, I noticed that you have put a great deal of effort and emotional labor into keeping our friendship alive and I'm curious not that I don't appreciate it, but what are you hoping to get out of this? And Benji looked at me and smiled and looked down at their food and smiled again in that way that is oh so endearing, and said well, you know I don't always let people go, even when I should. And boy did I hear that? Because so do I. I'm just better at hiding it. I'm better at walking away, because I learned at 21 that if you don't do that, bad things happen. I'm a little older than Benji and I was with a group of people that were a lot less forgiving than Benji's spouse.
Speaker 1:I don't know what's going to happen between me and Benji, but I will tell you that's one of the reasons that attachment styles and neurodiversity is an important subject to me, because before I can ever get into another relationship with quote one of my people, unquote or establish something beyond this stupid whatever it is that Benji and I have, I need to work through this and while, yes, I have spoken to my therapist and I have done some cognitive behavioral therapy, it's not that simple. I am unpacking some very deep issues and one of the worst parts about it is that just because I know I have abandonment issues and I know I don't like to form attachments because I'm afraid of getting hurt doesn't mean I have the answer for how to make sure it doesn't happen. I just get scared and when a relationship looks like it's getting serious, I do it. Any good ADHD person does. I move on to something else, something shiny, and hope that the person I left behind doesn't notice. More importantly, I hope that they didn't make an attachment to me and that they don't miss me, because I don't want to hurt people. So yeah, I'm that person who says, oh, don't get into a relationship with me if you don't want to get hurt, because I hurt the ones I love the most and you know the usual things. And I have one last question for you.
Speaker 1:I give that speech. I gave that speech to Benji, in fact, and you know what I swear. It's like putting catnip in front of a cat. Some guys are like okay, thanks, bye. Some people, I shouldn't even make it gendered. Some people are like, oh, my God, you mean you may or you may not hurt me. That is so awesome. And then they chase after you more. Those are the hardest for me. I am really bad at telling people to fuck off and go away. Even more so I'm very, very difficult for me to say look, I like you, but you have to be this tall to ride this ride and, honey, you are not emotionally this tall yet. Anyway, so that's my story and one of the things that's really important to me.
Speaker 1:I'm sure over the course of this podcast I'm going to share more things and my exes and current lovers are going to be like, oh God, is she going to talk about me now? So the thoughts and comments made by me do not reflect how my exes may or may not feel. All right, next week I'm going to be talking about fetishes and how they work with neuro typical people and how they work with neurodivergent people. That should be very exciting. There's some amazing research being done in the field of fetishes and picotellos. I'm really excited about it. In the meantime, have a great week. Remember your anxiety is lying to you.
Speaker 1:There are a lot of links in this week's episode because I was quoting from a number of sites and paraphrasing from a number of others. So please take a look at the links in the episode footer for all the information of who I compiled this information from and feel free to follow up with any questions. The musical intro is not so fast. Quarantine beats number one by Patchworker, formerly known as FriendZoned. The musical outro is the crossover by Pyrosion. You can find information about both of these artists in my episode footer. All the musical stings are a courtesy of GarageBand. The podcast art was created with the Imagine app for iOS and produced with Canva. My podcast is hosted by Buzzsprout. However, you can find it at Apple Podcasts or on Spotify, and I'll be branching out to some other podcast servers as soon as I am able. In the meantime, don't forget to tell your friends and find me on the internet at Neurokinkster. I'll find you all of my socials, or check out the episode footer for the links.