The Diverse Dungeon
Helping the neurodivergent find their safe places in BDSM and sex positive spaces.
The Diverse Dungeon
Episode 3 - Letting Go: neurodivergence and attachment
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Ever wondered how your neurodivergence affects your ability to form and maintain secure attachments? How might it impact not just your romantic relationships, but also those bonds within your family?
I also share a personal anecdote about why this topic is important to me, even if it’s more kink adjacent, than directly related.
Enjoy!
Links from episode:
The Attachment Project - https://www.attachmentproject.com/psychology/neurodiversity/
Introduction to Attachment Styles fromCoach Elizabeth Brink, BCC, ACC, CNC
https://www.thrivingsistercoaching.com/post/a-primer-on-attachment-theory-neurodivergent
Research Paper on Infatuation and Attachment
“Infatuation and attachment : How do they differ in autism and neurodiversity?”
https://osf.io/jth6f
Research Paper - Adult attachment and social anxiety: “The mediating role of emotion regulation strategies.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6310265/
Research Paper - The relationship between attachment and social anxiety, focusing on self-esteem and locus of control as possible mediators
https://uhra.herts.ac.uk/handle/2299/14297
Research Paper - “A systematic review of adult attachment and social anxiety”
https://eprints.lancs.ac.uk/id/eprint/131758/1/A_systematic_review_of_adult_attachment_and_social_anxiety.pdf
What Is Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria?
https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria
New Insights Into Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria
https://www.additudemag.com/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-adhd-emotional-dysregulation/
Rejection Sensitivity: Managing Feelings of Overwhelm and Rejection as an Adult with ADHD
https://add.org/rejection-sensitivity/
7 Emotions That Knock Us Off Our Feet
https://www.additudemag.com/slideshows/adhd-emotions-knock-off-our-feet/
Social Media:
- Instagram: @neurokinkster
- Facebook: neurokinkster
- Discord Servier: Neurokinkster
Website:
http://www.neurokinkster.com
Musical Intro:
Not So Fast (Quarantine Beats #01) by Patchworker f.k.a. [friendzoned] | https://soundcloud.com/patchworker
Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com
Creative Commons / Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0)
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/deed.en_US
Musical Outro:
The Crossover by Pyrosion | https://soundcloud.com/pyrosion
https://open.spotify.com/artist/51pxQJ5wdwSikfgYDBNXPE
https://www.instagram.com/pyrosion
https://www.youtube.com/@pyrosionmusic8562
Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com
Creative Commons / Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0)
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Attachment and Dating Profile Advice
Speaker 1Hey there , new York Inksters , and welcome to episode 3 of the Diverse Dungeon . This podcast deals with mature themes and ideas . Please do not listen if you do not wish to hear about BDSM , sex or neurodivergence , thank you . Quote Compassion is loving others enough to say or do what is appropriate from an empowered heart , without attachment to the outcome . Gary Zukov . Quote the choice that frees or imprisons us is the choice of love or fear . Love liberates fear in prisons , gary Zukov .
Speaker 1So if you saw my cute little dog , I was trying to make a short video about attachment , because once she gets hold of a towel , she doesn't like to let go . So if you're wondering what that is , I am going to try and learn how to do this real thing . So bear with me , and any suggestions are appreciated . All right , so we have our question of the week . This one was anonymous what is wrong with my dating profile ? Well , I'm going to talk to this specific person because I think a lot of what is wrong with their dating profile is a problem I've seen on a lot of people . Now , this is specific to FETLife , but I think it also is true on many other dating sites , where men are expected to do a lot of the pursuit , and I am talking about heteronormative sites like Bumble or Hinge . I am not familiar with sites like Grinder , and I know that there are plenty of folks out there who can talk about the gay and lesbian experience for dating . I am not one of them . I would like to reiterate that I don't think FETLife is a dating site , but the question came from FETLife and so I'm answering accordingly , so anonymous .
Speaker 1I took a look at your profile . One of the things I noticed is that you have a specific request , looking for a MILF specifically quote a MILF with large tits for you to suck on unquote . So you are asking for what really comes down to a transactional deal , whether it's casual sex , titty play , mommy fantasies , whatever . Those are all things that people presenting as FEM can provide if they choose to . So tell me , why would a MILF want to play with you and fulfill your fantasy ? What does she get out of it ? You are asking for emotional and physical labor and offering what I'm going to beat this dead horse . Women aren't a thing . You can order up on any dating site , plug in your fantasy and have it delivered via Grubhub , unless you are willing to pay them for the service they are providing . As a note , sex work should be legal and I'm going to be talking about that in an upcoming podcast with a pro-dom who is also a sex worker and has been for a long time .
Speaker 1Back to the question women , regardless of the size of their tits , their age or their fantasies , they are people . People share intimate experiences with , people they create a connection with . There are munches and fetish groups that cater to your fantasies , and I would suggest making some connections with people in those groups and see who you can meet . And here's a little bit of further advice the message system on a lot of dating sites , like OKCupid and FetLife , is not a chat or text forum . You don't want to only write one word . It will likely get ignored . Here's my suggestion Use notepad or something similar , compose a short message and then cut and paste it into the dating site app .
Speaker 1That way you can actually write a complete thing , hit return and actually send it out . Here's the other thing you have to put some information in your profile . You are more likely to get a reply and so help me if you write I'm not really the age at states of my profile , but blank app won't let me change it back you are lying . Just make a new profile , it's not that hard . The other thing , a larger photo of your face and or more pictures would help . A profile with no picture is a red flag and is likely another reason you are not getting any responses . And this is a final note specific to FetLife Anyone on FetLife can click on the Activity tab and see what groups you have joined and the comments you leave on someone's picture . Anyone who wants to look can see your comments and evaluate if you are considerate of the photograph person's feelings and preferences . In other words , unless it is specifically requested , don't make loot comments on people's pictures because every person you are trying to contact can see your history . If you are interested in the Kingkend BDSM lifestyle , again , I suggest you find a munch or some beginner classes to learn some of the basics . You can find them under the Events tab on FetLife .
Speaker 1So today's topic is about attachment and neurodivergence and I will absolutely admit this is a personal one for me . So first , I've got so much science for you guys today I am super psyched . I've got it from well , I wouldn't say around the world , but I have it from the Western world . So first of all , from the attachment project , I have a couple of things . One is neurodivergence tends to make insecure attachment more likely . Now this depends on the neurodivergent condition and its impact on the social , communication and emotion regulation . In other words , there are some people who are very closed off from their emotions and so they may not make the same kind of attachments as somebody , say , with ADHD , who tends to feel all the feelings .
Attachment, Repair, and Rejection in Relationships
Speaker 1So the attachment project puts it like this they call rupture is an experience , an often temporary breakdown in trust in a relationship due to an event that causes stress . Alongside a loss of trust , rupture can also cause feelings of betrayal and a breakdown in communication , and if you want more information , you can find the link down in my descriptions . Now , repair usually comes after a rupture . It's the process of healing and rebuilding the relationship after a fracture . Repair involves acknowledging the pain and hurt caused by the rupture and taking steps to address it as such , as communicating , doing activities together , other things that will build trust .
Speaker 1Now there is a whole science in education and psychology about attachment theory and how it impacts learning and how it impacts thinking , and I have to admit , having been a teacher for over 12 years and working in psychology , I have some doubts about how attachment theory works . I think that the three categories are just too broad and I think there's more detail there . I will leave a link in the description about attachment styles if you want to read more about it , but I'm going to stay away from those terminology . I'm just going to be talking about attachment as it relates to romantic friendship and familial connections . So I am attached to my nesting partner . I am attached to the people I date . I'm attached to my children . I'm attached to my family . How I style those attachments ? Not super important , at least not in my case .
Speaker 1That said , everyone ADHD , neurodivergent or not needs to be seen and heard . We are safe to explore the emotion behind our actions if it fosters a more compassionate connection through empathy for the other . When other people's behavior is a trigger for the conflict cycle , nobody is heard . In those moments it's less about the person in front of you and more about your past attachments that were not optimal . And this is from thriving sister coaching , and I will put a link to their site in the description . So what I read in that is something I have believed for a long time . When we form our early attachments , we are not verbal . These are the attachments we make with our caregivers . If something is wrong with those attachments , we go back to that nonverbal state where we think , oh my gosh , my caregiver mommy , daddy , grandma , guardian , whatever is not going to be there when I need them and we close ourselves off . And this isn't an articulated thought , it's just behavior . It is deep down in the slow parts of the brain , the lizard brain , if you will , and so it comes out of fear and survival instinct . It is not logical , and that is the most important thing to understand .
Speaker 1Most people not all , but most people with abandonment issues probably cannot articulate why they have them , and that is because they felt abandoned before they had the language to properly express it . I don't mean that they had bad parents . I mean that perhaps for some reason , their parent or caregiver wasn't there at a crucial moment when they needed to be . And that person learned through either one or two interactions or repeated interactions that when they cried or they wanted comfort , they were not going to receive it . In my case , both of my parents are on the spectrum . They were very attentive to me , but they were not particularly snuggly . They were not touch people , and so I grew up very touch-starved and so a lot of my abandonment issues come around hugs and touching I never know quite when it's appropriate and when it's not and couple that with social anxiety and I tend to have a don't touch me shield that radiates for like 20 feet . The people who get through it , god bless them . And the people who don't , god bless them for respecting my boundaries . It's a double-edged sword and I have a lot of work to do but I am working on it .
Speaker 1In Sweden there is an independent researcher named Leif Ekblad . Pardon me if I mispronounced that . He had a study that checked the infatuation and attachment scale , the IAS , relationship status and duration in mixed neurotype population , in other words , neurodiverse and neurotypical people . People in the neurodiverse population had higher infatuation scores and people obsessions mediated higher attachment scores . The primary increase in attachment occurred at a distance in the neurodiverse population and with dating in the neurotypical . People diagnosed with autism in the study had considerably more relationship problems compared to both neurodiverse and neurotypical participants . They were less likely to be in love or in a relationship and had shorter durations when they were .
Speaker 1So I have an acquaintance who is on the spectrum . They have identified themselves as autistic and one of the things we discussed in some of our interactions was how nobody speaks their language , and I mean they are obviously fluent in English . They didn't mean their linguistic language , they meant their mental language . The problem is is when somebody who is neurodiverse is trying to express themselves , they don't always have the words that somebody who is neurotypical can understand . Here's a good example .
Speaker 1They might say something like I'm lonely and the neurotypical person will say well , go out and see people . But that is not what the neurodivergent or autistic person means . When they say I'm lonely , they mean I don't feel like I have a person I can relate to . I feel like I'm the only one like me in the world . The internet has changed that a great deal .
Speaker 1When I was growing up , there were your people , but , as I mentioned in some of my writing , I didn't find them until I started going to Renaissance fairs and I hung out with the comic book Eek's and the roleplayers . That was the closest I came to my people . Once I found the internet , I was able to find much closer matches , but there are times when I still feel lonely because I'm still looking for that person who will just get me . So here's the problem when a neurodiverse person finds one of their people , they grab on like a lamprey and do not let go . I have done this . I know many other people who are neurodivergent have done this . It is one of our less attractive traits and I'm going to talk about that more in a moment . So here's the problem when a neurodiverse person finds one of their people , they grab on like a lamprey and do not let go . I have done this . I know many other people who are neurodivergent have done this . It is one of our less attractive traits and I'm going to talk about that more in a moment .
Speaker 1So when we're talking about adult attachment and social anxiety , we're looking for emotional regulation strategies . The fact is , we've all learned how to get by and not make total assholes of ourselves , or at least I think many of us had . Of course , one of the best techniques is not go out . If we don't go out , we won't screw up and , given how easy it is to be on the internet and connect with people in a very safe way , I know that's how a lot of people end up sitting around their houses and having these wonderful relationships with people who are online , because we can always make sure that there's a little bit of distance , that there's practice , but they don't see how desperate or lonely we are and don't get scared .
Speaker 1And here's the other thing , and this is called rejection sensitive dysphoria . Now , this is usually applied to people with ADHD , but honestly , I think it happens to anybody who feels their feelings very deeply . You think RSD again , rejection sensitive dysphoria does not have an official set of symptoms . It isn't a formal medical diagnosis , but doctors and therapists often use the term when they notice exaggerated reactions connected to an official behavioral connection , like ADHD . So the word dysphoria stems from an ancient Greek word that translates to intense feelings of pain or discomfort You've probably heard of like body dysphoria or gender dysphoria . So people who experience RSD don't handle rejection well . In fact , they find it hard to describe what they feel and they use words like unbearable or devastating . It can cause a serious fear of rejection , which again keeps people at home , and I spoke about this when I was talking about how to handle consent issues because , as I mentioned , I didn't hear hey , you made a mistake , please learn from it , give yourself a mental upgrade and move on . I just heard you suck , go away . That is what RSD does to people . Now the research for RSD and how it's linked to ADHD is still unclear , and that's because how do you measure rejection ? Eugene Arnold , a psychiatrist and behavioral health specialist at Ohio State University , believes that people with ADHD and other forms of neurodiversity are more likely to show the symptoms of RSD due to differences in brain structure .
Speaker 1Now Caroline McWire , who is a master's of education , if I'm reading this correctly , talks about the difference between rejection sensitivity , which is different than rejection sensitivity . Dysphoria , which she calls rejection sensitivity , is the tendency to anxiously expect , readily perceive and intensely react to rejection , or what I like to call living in the real world . Don't have expectations , expect rejection and you'll never be disappointed . Caroline McWire would probably say that I'm being too cynical and I have to be honest . She has a much better policy than mine . So she calls it the four Rs and what she says is to gauge the intensity of our emotions . These steps can calm your body and mind and help you figure out how intense the emotions you are feeling are . First , she says recognize , identify where you are emotionally . The second thing , she says , is to respond . As you recognize where you are on the intensity meter , you can appropriately respond . Her third R is reflect . She says this is very important because , of course , how we react to a situation from that lizard brain or feelings of rejection is probably not logical or wouldn't make sense to somebody . And so she says what story are you telling yourself ? What evidence do you have that that story is true ? I mean , would those people actually say that about you ? And then her final step is reframe . So instead of falling into the rabbit hole where you say I suck , nobody loves me , I will always be alone , consider healthy strategies like considering better reactions . So overall , I really appreciated these four things .
Navigating Toxic Relationships and Attachment Issues
Speaker 1Caroline McWire wrote a book called why Will no One Play With Me , and I believe the final statement on her website , where I got the four Rs , come from that . Because her question is what if people really don't want to play with you ? And she says if Rs is a big issue for you , consider working with a therapist . Evaluating past situations can help you move forward in a more confident manner . In addition , cbt and DBT workbooks can help you work through these issues on your own . And what if people don't actually want to play with you ? If this is the case , work on your social skills to help reduce the risk of being rejected in the future . So I have social anxiety and when people don't want to quote unquote play with me , it's probably because I lack social skills . Gee , thanks , now I feel so much better . This is one of the reasons I really like the BDSM and kink environment and community Because , quite frankly , they are more likely to take you aside and talk to you about your social skills . I've been fired from jobs because of a quote unquote lack of social skills . I have never been asked to leave a BDSM environment and I have been talked to about my behavior and I've worked on it and I didn't feel rejected . All right . So I promised you that this was very personal .
Speaker 1It is time for a story . Yes , it is story time . I'm going to talk about my ex . Okay , I have a lot of exes , but this one is a specific one , and I'm going to call them Benji , because it's really hard to talk about this without a name . When I met Benji , I knew from the moment I met them that they were my people and I believe that feeling was reciprocated . We clicked like I have never clicked with anyone before and our relationship was intense .
Speaker 1It was also a toxic and horrible relationship , and I think it is because we both have ADHD , and I believe we both suffer from this dysphoria , this idea of being rejected , and boy do we both have abandonment issues . So , to quote a friend of mine , when we were good and we were amazing and when we are bad , it was an apocalypse and we had a lot of apocalypses . This is why the relationship should not have lasted as long as it did and has lasted still to this day in one form or another . Because here's the other problem we found our people , so we don't want to let go . Now , for me , that's not the hugest issue . I am in an ethical , non-monogamous relationship , and while my nesting partner isn't thrilled with this particular ex , they have learned to at least accept them . Regrettably , my ex is married and the person they are married to is not polyamorous and does not believe in ethical non-monogamy . So I did what any good ex-girlfriend does I walked away .
Speaker 1I ended all contact For over a year Not a word , not an email , not a text , not even a sub-tweet or an aside on Facebook . Do I think that they were keeping track of me ? Oh , hell yeah . I kept a Tarot blog and I'm pretty damn sure that they looked at it , especially since now and again , they send me Tarot card decks that they think I'd be interested in , and I never talked about Tarot when we were together . As far as I recall , that was something I picked up as a way to get over them . But they weren't going to let go .
Speaker 1And I knew they weren't letting go and one day , months and months after I had walked away and stopped all contact , I got an email from them saying hey , I'm going to be in town , do you want to get dinner ? And I did . I got dinner and I tried I tried so many times to explain to them why I was upset and why I didn't think a friendship was going to work . I mean , I basically said as long as you're married to that person , we can't be friends . Because that person tried to get me out of their lives , and I can understand why . Remember what I said earlier about toxic and apocalypse . I believe that their partner loves them very much and wanted what was best for them and did not see me as part of that equation , and I do not want to even consider the amount of fights and emotional labor those two went through to figure out where to shove me in . Because , again , benji would not let go and I don't mean to put this all on Benji , because Benji sent the email , but I answered it . I could have ignored it .
Speaker 1What has happened since , you might ask ? Well , sometimes we talk for an hour . Sometimes we just send each other stupid memes . Sometimes , like now , we haven't spoken to each other in a long enough amount of time that I've noticed it . But since I sent the last message , I just get to sit and wait , because that is how this relationship works . We have never addressed what went wrong between us , other than to say it sucked . We have never really addressed where we're going , because I don't think they can tell me . I know where I want to go , but I don't see that happening .
Speaker 1Provided that they are in the relationship that they are and I don't mean they have to leave their spouse . I would never expect that of somebody I cared about . I mean that their relationship needs to work out something so that their spouse is okay with having me around . And we did take a step in that direction . My spouse and I met Benji's spouse and their lovely child for breakfast the last time we were in their part of the country and it didn't go badly . But the fact is that , as much as I know that this is a bad idea .
Speaker 1It's hard to let go because Benji is one of my people and I don't have very many of quote my people unquote , there are a few . And here's the other problem when I meet one of my people , the relationship tends towards codependent . Because of ADHD , because of RSD , because of my abandonment issues . This isn't easy . One of the reasons I've been poly for so long is to avoid this problem . If I don't get too connected to any one person , I can't get hurt , and it took 44 years before somebody like Benji came in and ruined all of it .
Speaker 1The last time Benji and I were together in the same place , we were having lunch at one of my favorite takarias and I said , as my therapist suggested Benji , I noticed that you have put a great deal of effort and emotional labor into keeping our friendship alive and I'm curious not that I don't appreciate it , but what are you hoping to get out of this ? And Benji looked at me and smiled and looked down at their food and smiled again in that way that is oh so endearing , and said well , you know I don't always let people go , even when I should . And boy did I hear that ? Because so do I . I'm just better at hiding it . I'm better at walking away , because I learned at 21 that if you don't do that , bad things happen . I'm a little older than Benji and I was with a group of people that were a lot less forgiving than Benji's spouse .
Speaker 1I don't know what's going to happen between me and Benji , but I will tell you that's one of the reasons that attachment styles and neurodiversity is an important subject to me , because before I can ever get into another relationship with quote one of my people , unquote or establish something beyond this stupid whatever it is that Benji and I have , I need to work through this and while , yes , I have spoken to my therapist and I have done some cognitive behavioral therapy , it's not that simple . I am unpacking some very deep issues and one of the worst parts about it is that just because I know I have abandonment issues and I know I don't like to form attachments because I'm afraid of getting hurt doesn't mean I have the answer for how to make sure it doesn't happen . I just get scared and when a relationship looks like it's getting serious , I do it . Any good ADHD person does . I move on to something else , something shiny , and hope that the person I left behind doesn't notice . More importantly , I hope that they didn't make an attachment to me and that they don't miss me , because I don't want to hurt people . So yeah , I'm that person who says , oh , don't get into a relationship with me if you don't want to get hurt , because I hurt the ones I love the most and you know the usual things . And I have one last question for you .
Speaker 1I give that speech . I gave that speech to Benji , in fact , and you know what I swear . It's like putting catnip in front of a cat . Some guys are like okay , thanks , bye . Some people , I shouldn't even make it gendered . Some people are like , oh , my God , you mean you may or you may not hurt me . That is so awesome . And then they chase after you more . Those are the hardest for me . I am really bad at telling people to fuck off and go away . Even more so I'm very , very difficult for me to say look , I like you , but you have to be this tall to ride this ride and , honey , you are not emotionally this tall yet . Anyway , so that's my story and one of the things that's really important to me .
Speaker 1I'm sure over the course of this podcast I'm going to share more things and my exes and current lovers are going to be like , oh God , is she going to talk about me now ? So the thoughts and comments made by me do not reflect how my exes may or may not feel . All right , next week I'm going to be talking about fetishes and how they work with neuro typical people and how they work with neurodivergent people . That should be very exciting . There's some amazing research being done in the field of fetishes and picotellos . I'm really excited about it . In the meantime , have a great week . Remember your anxiety is lying to you .
Episode Information and Music Credits
Speaker 1There are a lot of links in this week's episode because I was quoting from a number of sites and paraphrasing from a number of others . So please take a look at the links in the episode footer for all the information of who I compiled this information from and feel free to follow up with any questions . The musical intro is not so fast . Quarantine beats number one by Patchworker , formerly known as FriendZoned . The musical outro is the crossover by Pyrosion . You can find information about both of these artists in my episode footer . All the musical stings are a courtesy of GarageBand . The podcast art was created with the Imagine app for iOS and produced with Canva . My podcast is hosted by Buzzsprout . However , you can find it at Apple Podcasts or on Spotify , and I'll be branching out to some other podcast servers as soon as I am able . In the meantime , don't forget to tell your friends and find me on the internet at Neurokinkster . I'll find you all of my socials , or check out the episode footer for the links .